Wednesday, February 10, 2010

Michael Oren Heckled and Stupid, Stupid Protesters

Making fun of childish university protesters could be a full time job. Although every piece would end up looking the same. If I were smart, I would just make a document with empty spaces for the date and location, and simply plug in those necessary tidbits every time one of these protests pops up.

The recent free speech hating outburst came from our good friends at the University of California, Irive who found it necessary to disrupt a speech by Israeli Ambassador to the US, Michael Oren. The Muslim Student Union at UCI has been an especially disgusting group that has been connected to radical Islamist elements around the world. So I expect this group to hate democracy and have no qualms about silencing a diplomat from a free and democratic state from speaking. The "radical" "leftists" who stood in solidarity with them is another matter altogether, and yet another moment that demonstrates just how broken and pathetic the Left in the West has become.



Good for the university official that reprimanded them for behaving like the children that they are. Grow up, learn how to debate, and come back to school when you have outgrown your diapers. Leave scholarly activity to the adults.

Well, at least they weren't calling for the death of Jews like they did in Oxford. I suppose I could give them credit for that.

Update:
Here is the whole event at UCI. Near the end is a short interview with Palestinian refugee Ghazi Brighith, which is worth a listen.

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just ban the Muslim Student Union already. These people have no respect for the university.

Anonymous said...

If George Galloway qualifies as a radical Islamist element, then we can say that YOU have ties to radical Islam. This sort of mud-slinging went out with the Bush administration.

This group disrupted the presentation on the basis of "civil disobedience", which has a rich and illustrious tradition in democratic countries, especially the US.

Furthermore, Michael Oren's role as a war criminal overshadows his role as a "diplomat from a free and democratic state". Attacking the Goldstone Report is not something any sincere freedom-loving democrat would do. http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/10/oren-loses-it.html

It sounds like you don't know many Muslims. I'm sure if you spent time with them you'd have a less hackneyed view of the MIddle East, so I encourage you to do so. Do Anna Baltzer http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/ or Pamela Olson http://www.pamolson.org/ or Phil Weiss http://mondoweiss.net/ look like radical leftists or Islamists to you?

Roland Dodds said...

Anon:

My goodness, what a mess to wade through. “Civil disobedience” huh? Looks like good old anti-speech action to me, and just about anyone else who has half the brain cells required to actually engage in a debate is going to agree. Would you extend your “civil disobedience” policy to individuals who came to MSU meetings and scream at everyone until the meeting is derailed? How about if someone went into a Mosque and decided to make a scene and disrupt their proceedings? Nah, I didn’t think you would. Thankfully, some of us actually care about open debate, and don’t need the personal gratification gained by sloganeering during a lecture. See, that’s what separates children from adults. “Civil disobedience”….good god man, go read up on what that actually looked like throughout the Civil Rights struggle before you try to claim the fucking mantle.

Wow! Andrew Sullivan doesn’t like Oren, and you say he is a war criminal to boot! That changes everything then I suppose. Oh wait, no it doesn’t. You can believe he is the devil incarnate, but that doesn’t make it so, and just because you think he is doesn’t give you the right to interrupt an event that he was invited to. And that is the real point here. But I guess this little point likely escapes you.

I happen to hate Iran’s Ahmedinejad, but if he was invited to speak at a university, I would never employ the tactics used by the MSU to disrupt him. I know our ideas are stronger than is, and in a debate, he will lose.

As for the MSU’s extremist alliances, I sure as hell don’t have to go through the laundry list of incidents to convince anyone coming to this blog, they already know. But here are just a few links from our comrade Charles Johnson.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/lgf-search.php?searchString=%22UC+Irvine%22

Not good enough? Here is some from the ADL.

http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Israel/Anti-Semitism+at+UC+Irvine.htm

I know, I know, those are all evil “Zionists” and can’t be trusted right? Well a quick search through Youtube should find you enough juicy and racist comments from the MSU.

As for knowing Muslims, I happen to. But as Palestinian refugee Ghazi Brighith said in the video, the MSU by no means represents the Muslim population of the US or the West. They are an extremist supporting organization that hates actual debate both because its arguments are weak and/or they fear and actual debate. So they scream like children up past their bedtime.

So please kid, spare me the bullshit.

Anonymous said...

"Looks like good old anti-speech action to me, and just about anyone else who has half the brain cells required to actually engage in a debate is going to agree. "

I value free speech and certainly believe everyone's voices should be heard, including Oren's. I think things like this would not happen if universities didn't pre-screen questions for question time; if speech truly were free, that would be better. But there's a great deal of hypocrisy here. Oren himself marginalized J-Street and refused to engage in any dialogue there. The Israeli right-wing is of the belief that it is wrong to listen to or dialogue with Hamas. Israeli lobbyists are notorious for stifling critical voices: just look at what they did to Norman Finkelstein. It is rich as you quote the ADL website; that organization is also well-known for stifling any criticism of Israel. Heck, look at the first person who commented on this post of yours: "Just ban the Muslim Student Union" already. You let that pass without any high-minded comment.


"Would you extend your “civil disobedience” policy to individuals who came to MSU meetings and scream at everyone until the meeting is derailed?"

If a person like Ayman Al-Zawahiri, a person whose views are directly connected to the murder of innocent civilians, were being lent credibility by being hosted by my university, I would hope he's run out of town too. Let him & Oren publish their ugly tracts against basic human rights, in the name of free speech, but don't make me sit there quietly while they are feted as diplomats.

"MSU by no means represents the Muslim population of the US or the West."
Look at your links. Is Cynthia McKinney an extremist? Her own views were stifled by the pro-Israel lobby, which has a stranglehold on Democratic financing.

Open your eyes, treat everyone fairly. Go learn about what happened to the Palestinians. You clearly do not know.

TNC said...

"Open your eyes, treat everyone fairly. Go learn about what happened to the Palestinians. You clearly do not know."

Actually, most of us are well aware what happened. The Palestinians--or at least their (mis)leadership--have chosen peace over war for five decades and counting.

Anonymous said...

TNC: I'll let the Israeli leadership of the last 6 decades set you straight:
http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.



"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

Anonymous said...

"Actually, most of us are well aware what happened. The Palestinians--or at least their (mis)leadership--have chosen peace over war for five decades and counting."

Wow, perfect Freudian slip! You ARE aware, at some deep level.

Roland Dodds said...

Hey, I can post quotes too!
Abdel Jawad Saleh, PA's Minister of Agriculture, Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah on Nov. 6, 1997
"The Jews seek to conquer the world...We must expose the Zionist-Colonialist plot and its goals, which destroy not only our people but the entire world."

Imad Faluji, PA cabinet minister, Rally in Lebanon rally, March 3, 2001

The violence "had been planned since Chairman Arafat's return from Camp David..."

Marwan Barghouti, Fatah secretary in the West Bank
Interview with Al Hayyat Al-Jadedah (official Palestinian Authority daily newspaper), printed in The Jerusalem Times, June 8 2001

"I believe that a return to negotiations would be nothing but a waste of time and that seeking the mediation of the US is useless."

Yasser Arafat - Palestinian 'President'
Eulogy to a Palestinian official, June 15 1995

"The oath is firm to continue this difficult Jihad (holy war), this long Jihad, in the path of martyrs, the path of sacrifices"

And the message to Palestinian children?

“"Sanabel, what do you want to do to help the Al-Aqsa Mosque?" Farfur asks on the children's program of Hamas's Al-Aqsa television station. "We want to fight." "And what else?" "Wipe out the Jews."

Classy. And good god, if you want to get in a quote war, you are not going to win kid. Unfortunately for you, murderous Jew hatred is more pervasive on the Palestinian side than racism on the Israeli end.

Anonymous said...

Roland,

It seems you are the child. The point is not to post one quote in return for another, the point is to address the content of what was said. You didn't refute a single one of those quotes which clearly show that Zionism has been a project involving a great deal of ethnic cleansing. The "jihad" quote simply refers that their struggle to defend their homeland continues, again, a plain and uncontroversial truth, provided that you believe people have a right to defend their homes. It seems that you don't.

Now, be a grown-up and explain each one of those Prime Ministerial quotes to me.

It is also rather childish to post quotes from Farfur in reply to Ben Gurion and Sharon. How silly can you get? The Arafat quote is simple stating a benign truth.

Roland Dodds said...

The reason you are being treated as a child is because the uninformed and empirically inaccurate position you have brought is the same one folks like myself here endlessly for apologists for Palestinian terror and Arab state warmongering. All of your talk of ethnic cleansing is intended to deny the basic right of the Jews in Israel the right to their state. It may surprise you to learn that at the turn of last century, 45,000 Jews lived in Jerusalem (a majority I might add), or that thousands of other Jews had been living in Palestine for centuries. To claim that the Jews had no presence and no right to their land is such blatant revisionism that it reminds me why I don’t even bother having this debate with folks who can’t even recognize it.

I stand by a two state solution. The Arab Palestinians have a right to a state as well, but I won’t waste a single breath debating anyone who believes the Jews don’t have an equal right to theirs.
And for all your talk of ethnic cleansing, you fail to recognize that non-Jewish Arabs are actually citizens of Israel right now. Something no Jew could possibly achieve in the Palestinian territories, even if there families were from those areas. Never forget the ancient Jewish communities throughout the Arab world that were cleansed and destroyed in the last 75 years. And yes, all of this relates to the issue at hand, because Israel is not dealing with partners who are interested in peace and equality. These are not parties that will allow the Jews to simply live on their sliver of land, they want to eradicate them. You can give them cover by claiming Israel is a colonial power, but it doesn’t change the reality on the ground. I selected some rather benign quotes from Palestinian leadership (and heck, you even found Arafat’s oath to continue jihad to be acceptable, which says a lot), but the well is deep and reflects a cultural problem on the side of the Arab communities surrounding Israel.

But again, a single word more debating someone who doesn’t believe Israel and its Jewish inhabitants have a right to exist there really isn’t worth my time. You will find plenty of folks that mimic the same argument you are making at Counterpunch or Stormfront, so it is probably in your best interest to hang out there.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

EDIT: LINKS REMOVED
"Unfortunately for you, murderous Jew hatred is more pervasive on the Palestinian side than racism on the Israeli end."

Compare the amount of land stolen by Palestinians from European Zionists and vice versa. Which side has been deploying tanks, bulldozers, F-16s, Apache helicopters on a population armed with none of those things. Read the Goldstone Report, compiled by a Zionist no less. Go see the body count since 1948.

"Murderous blood flows in Israeli arteries," says the grandson of former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. He should know!

Read the accounts of Britons and Americans, many of them formerly enthusiastic Zionists, who had the guts to go to the West Bank and see for themselves.

I do not know what psychological phenomenon prevents you from seeing ethnic cleansing even when the ethnic cleansers themselves freely admit to it, but for your sake I hope you come to your senses. I look forward to hearing you explain why these IDF soldiers should not believe their own eyewitness testimony, and what those Zionist PM quotations REALLY mean.

Roland Dodds said...

I am very happy that you know how to post a bunch of anti-Israel links. You may feel they are of the utmost importance (wow, a Prime Ministers grandson thinks Israel sucks, it must be true!) but just like your little quote game, I can fill up the screen with hundreds of links. I know you won’t read them, you have your point of view that is irreconcilable with reality and you like it, but as I said before it isn’t worth the time.
Again, all your talk about stolen land is nothing more than a revision of history to take away the right of Israel to exist at all. By claiming the state of Israel is illegitimate and doesn’t deserve to exist, you can rationalize your support for theocrats and terrorists that you yourself would never live under, and justify the constant vilification of the Jews and the democratic state of Israel.
So the body count numbers reflect who is right and who is wrong here? This is a truly laughable position. The rockets fired into Israel fail to kill scores of women and children only because Israel prepares its citizens living in those areas for such attacks. If it was up to Hamas, they would thousands more with each rocket if given the opportunity.

And drop the bullshit about the Israelis having superior military technology, and that justifies terrorism and warmongering. The Palestinian terrorist organizations have plenty of foreign backers who provide them with the means to kill thousands upon thousands of people. And they use it when they can. Because some Hamas militant finds it to be a good strategy to hide in civilian neighborhoods does not relieve them of the responsibility attached to that strategy. That kind of military strategy shows no respect or consideration for innocent civilians, and yet you find a way to blame Israel for it. But again, you have your narrative, and none of these little facts are going to shake that.

You don’t seem to be able to understand that in a free state like Israel, people have a right to dissent. Soldiers may disagree with Israeli military mission; cultural critics can criticize a policy. The basic fact that they are allowed to do that in Israel, while dissidents are murdered by armed thugs in the streets of Palestine only reinforces my support for the state of Israel. Returning to the incident this post is responding to, the irony is that all of the Palestinians I have met in my life were individuals who fled because they had hits put on them and their families for disagreeing with local Palestinian authorities. You can talk around this point all you like, but for those of us who are realists and reality minded, it matters what kind of governments and political cultures are involved in these struggles. Unlike you, I don’t need to make the Israeli/Palestinian conflict into a simplistic James Cameron movie; it is far more complex and for someone with such a simplistic view of it, debating you beyond this point is as inspiring as discussing Plato with my cat.

Peace out.

Anonymous said...

"It may surprise you to learn that at the turn of last century, 45,000 Jews lived in Jerusalem (a majority I might add), or that thousands of other Jews had been living in Palestine for centuries. To claim that the Jews had no presence and no right to their land is such blatant revisionism"

It does not surprise me at all, for I am descended from them. Jews lived peacefully amongst Muslims and Christians (themselves in many cases descended from Jews) for centuries. Clearly then, the Arabs do not have a history of wanting to eradicate Jews; they are the ones who brought them back to Jerusalem as a matter of goodwill. Those indigenous Jews have a right to be there, ***and they are largely anti-Zionist***. What is wrong is the flood of European secular Jews who killed and drove out the natives to set up a state for themselves. That is what is clearly wrong and evil.


"And for all your talk of ethnic cleansing, you fail to recognize that non-Jewish Arabs are actually citizens of Israel right now. Something no Jew could possibly achieve in the Palestinian territories, even if there families were from those areas."

This contradicts what you said above. Palestinian Jews have a long history. Even today what you say is entirely incorrect; Jews are welcome to be Palestinians so long as they are not part of the ethnic cleansing enterprise. There is even an elected Jewish member of Fatah, Uri Davis:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/5445/heresy_of_a_hebrew_palestinian/


Clearly, you have not yet grasped the basic facts. And you still haven't addressed the content of those quotes from the founders and leaders of Modern Israel.

Roland Dodds said...

“Even today what you say is entirely incorrect; Jews are welcome to be Palestinians so long as they are not part of the ethnic cleansing enterprise.”
Hilarious. So yea, we like Jews as long as they parrot our line and deny the right of Israel to exist. Funny how the Arabs in Israel aren’t required to state a similar line. As most of the Jews still living in Arab lands will tell you, their constant parading about against Israel is hardly by their own accord, but that is how totalitarian states and societies operate. Everyone is welcome, as long as you believe exactly like I do!

“What is wrong is the flood of European secular Jews who killed and drove out the natives to set up a state for themselves. That is what is clearly wrong and evil.”
As long as the new individuals remain in the confines of Israel, it doesn’t matter where they come from. The state can set up any kind of immigration policy they like. Using your reasoning, no state should be allowed to offer citizenship to any individual not born there, something I vehemently oppose. When the Palestinian leadership decides to take adult responsibility and accept an actually Palestinian state to exist, I would hope they would allow immigrants to move there if it was a desirable place to stay. Moreover, by legitimizing the current position of the Palestinian authorities and Arab states, you spit on ever single liberal and dissident in those areas that refuses to tow the governments line. I would assume you would classify yourself as someone on the left in your home country, but you fail to extend those very basic rights and principles to those struggling to realize our basic rights. Instead, you legitimize totalitarianism as acceptable all in the name of “the struggle.” Sad.

As for the quotes from founding Zionists, it means very little to me. First of all, I don’t know the context to them and when dealing with Israel haters, I have found their ability to adequately cite sources and attribute quotes correctly to be severely lacking. None the less, there comments don’t deter me a bit, because I believe what a state and a people do is more important than what some of their members say. Israel is a democratic, liberal, free state. The benefits given to its citizens are unparalleled in the region around them, and have been since its inception. Every single founder of Israel could be child molesters, and it wouldn’t matter in the least as to the character of the state that exists. Unlike the Palestinian authorities that have only made for a more violent, unequal, and unjust society. I care about results and the types of governments that exist: if the shoe were on the other foot and Palestine was the democratic, liberal state and Israel was a theocratic autocracy, my support would be reversed.

But again, it goes back to the entire problem with your line of reasoning: you deny any right for the state of Israel and so you rationalize some of the worst thugs and groups on earth. Until you recognize how the Palestinian leadership has been responsible for the decades of lost opportunities for the people they claim to represent, you won’t be able to see the world and this problem as it really is.
I realize that in a post about some students who failed to grasp free speech principles, I will now have to go through the litany of misconceptions furthered by Israel haters about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. God have mercy.

Alena said...

Not a word form anonymous about the racism and desire to eradicate a people by the founding PLO members. Something they continue to do today. Liberal double standard at its best.

Roland Dodds said...

It looks like I had good reason to question the context of the quotes provided by anon.

http://www.jcpa.org/ngo/ngo-2-miftah.html

Not surprising in the least.

ModernityBlog said...

good video, particularly the bits at the end.

btw, the web is FULL of fake Ben Gurion quotes, most are best ignored.