Tuesday, April 21, 2009

Ron Paul and the Tea Parties

The Ron Paul Meetup website had this flyer up advertising a Tea Party in California.

This man (I doubt this ad was officially endorsed by Paul himself, but as I have documented before, Paul seems to roll with lots of folks who hold these types of views) as well as his followers need to find the rock they crawled out from under and return to it.


kellie said...

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, "waiter, there's a fly with a flag in my expensive wine" perhaps.

LanceThruster said...

@kellie - Yeah, nothing like joking about Palestinians being "sub-human" when complaining that an accurate depiction of Israeli policies is somehow offensive (the actual policies themselves notwithstanding).

Roland Dodds said...

Uh Lance, I am not sure what comment you read, but that had nothing to do with Kellie’s comment.

kellie said...

Well, looking at the scale of the individual in the bottle compared with the person making expensive wine out of a bucketload of money, I guess I misunderstood.

Is the drawing then of an enormous fairytale giant making wine out of money? And the person with the flag is Jack the giant killer? An unfortunate hiding place, but he'll win the day against that oversize dipsomaniac I'm sure.

LanceThruster said...

@Roland (and kellie) - Sorry, but it's there. To equate a Palestinian human being drowning in blood as a "fly with a flag" is to depict them as something as less than human. Zionsists are on record as equating Palestinians to cockroaches and other vermin (beasts on two legs) so the precedent is already there.

You at least (so far) allow for dissenting opinions as 'snoopythegoon' scrubs his site of anything that might make Zionists cry. Until that time that you follow suit, I have to give you that.

Bottom line is I didn't think that the poster was anti-Semitic. I am not a Ron Paul supporter other than I recognize that he's taken some courageous stands on a number of issues.

LanceThruster said...

For the record, here is the excerpt that snoopythegoon is so afraid of:

From: Anti-Semitism and the Beirut Pogrom by Fredy Perlman

The trick of declaring war against the armed resistance and then attacking the resisters' unarmed kin as well as the sur­rounding population with the most gruesome products of Death-Science; this trick is not new. American Pioneers were pioneers in this too; they made it standard practice to declare war on indigenous warriors and then to murder and burn villages with only women and children in them. This is already modern war, what we know as war against civilian populations; it has also been called, more candidly, mass murder or genocide.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that the perpetrators of a Pogrom portray themselves as the victims, in the present case as victims of the Holocaust.

Herman Melville noticed over a century ago, in his analysis of the metaphysics of Indian-hating, that those who made a full-time profession of hunting and murdering indigenous people of this continent always made themselves appear, even in their own eyes, as the victims of manhunts.

The use the Nazis made of the International Jewish Conspiracy is better known: during all the years of atrocities defying belief, the Nazis considered themselves the victimized.

It's as if the experience of being a victim gave exemption from human solidarity, as if it gave special powers, as if it gave a license to kill.

kellie said...

Lance, what you're missing here is that we're talking about a drawing. It's the artist responsible who has depicted the Palestinian nation as a fly/midget/powerless-speck drowning in/wine/soup/blood. It's the artist who has depicted them as pathetic, powerless, and something less than human.

This piece of propaganda is not just simplistically anti-Zionist, it is also deeply condescending to Palestinians, as well as being fundamentally incoherent and incompetent. (What is the source of that red stuff anyway?)

LanceThruster said...

@kellie - I'll have to disagree with your interpretation again.

The person *trapped* in the bottle is drowning in blood distilled by the Israelis from the cash flowing freely from the US.

Because one is in distress does not make them less than human.

Roland Dodds said...

Lance, your reading comprehension is seriously lacking. Who is saying that one being in distress makes them less human? Surely no one posting here, and I have no idea how you even came up with that.

As for your comment about “Zionists” comparing Palestinians to cockroaches, I can only assume you are either fresh to the whole Israel/Palestine issue, or willfully ignorant of it. Not a single Zionist I know has ever said Palestinians are less human, but I have run into many “anti-Zionists” who have made incredibly racist and bigoted comments about Jews (ooops, or Zionists). Surely some of the religious settler fringe holds those views, but they are far outside of the mainstream. Unlike the representation of Jews in Palestinian society.

Again, if you don’t see why the images imagery plays on old (and sadly common) racists stereotypes about the Jews, then we have little to discuss. You can try and rationalize it all day long, but it doesn’t change the character of the ad.

Roland Dodds said...

I probably should have read your blog before commenting, and since your first post that appears is about “false flag operations” and 9/11, I see that I likely wasted my time trying to make a rational argument to begin with.

LanceThruster said...

Whatever Roland - You worry about reading comprehension as you both fail to grasp even the most simple concepts. And your typical dodge of claiming another view I hold somehow negates this discussion is not unexpected.

As the following points out, CAMERA often plays fast and loose withthe facts themselves. I do thank you for leaving my posts up and undoctored as snoopythegoon is too cowardly to do either.

See: http://www.onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2841.shtml

Sample quotation # 4: "[The Palestinians] would be crushed like grasshoppers . . . heads smashed against the boulders and walls." [Then Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers, New York Times, 1 April 1988] [10]

Sample quotation # 5: "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle." [Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces, David Shipler, “Most West Bank Arabs Blaming U.S for Impasse,” New York Times, 14 April 1983, A3.] [11]

STATUS: again, CAMERA takes exception with a quotation mentioned by Fisk. Says CAMERA,

According to Fisk’s article:

[Arafat] is chastised by George Bush while his people are bestialised by the Israeli leadership. Rafael Eytan, the former Israeli chief of staff, used to talk of the Palestinians as "cockroaches in a glass jar". Menachem Begin called them “two-legged beasts” . . .

These quotes appear on numerous anti-Israel Web sites, raising the question of whether Fisk obtained his information on one of the sites that share his agenda. While there is some truth to these quotes, they are either distorted or taken out of context.

Investigation--Example 1: Fisk suggests that Eitan routinely referred to the Palestinians as “cockroaches” He states this as fact, giving no source, but other internet sites refer to an April 13, 1983 article by Gad Becker in the Israeli daily, Yediot Ahronot. This original source of the quote, however, indicates that Eitan’s comment was atypical, made in specific reference to Arab violence. According to Becker, this “uncharacteristic” (as he puts it) and controversial comment was made by outgoing Chief of Staff Eitan during a discussion of how best to deal with Arab violence in the West Bank. In responding to suggestions by Knesset members that the army should stop stone throwers by shooting at their feet or throwing stones back, Eitan reportedly said:

The Arabs will never win over us by throwing stones. Our response must be a nationalist Zionist response. For every stone that’s thrown–we will build ten settlements. If 100 settlements will exist–and they will–between Nablus and Jerusalem, stones will not be thrown. If this will be the situation, then the Arabs will only be able to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle.

Summary: A single (albeit controversial) remark made in a specific context is misrepresented as a generalized, routine slur by an Israeli leader. [12]

EXAMINATION: A microfiche search did turn up Eitan’s quotation in the New York Times. Clearly, CAMERA is turning itself into a pretzel trying to whitewash a racist remark by Eitan. It distracts readers by noting that Fisk did not disclose the source of the quotation. Then CAMERA admits Eitan make the comment, but insists it was “atypical” by citing one person. Is this supposed to be compelling evidence of atypicality?

In examining these three cases, it should be evident that CAMERA is running damage control for Zionist racism. With this in mind, we will present next further examples of racist comments by prominent Zionists.

kellie said...

I see, so it's the blood of Americans then. Bizarre. I preferred my Jack and the Beanstalk interpretation.

Here's another fairytale Lance would appreciate, courtesy of Harry's Place. I see HP also give this story a mention today.

Roland Dodds said...

“And your typical dodge of claiming another view I hold somehow negates this discussion is not unexpected.”

It isn’t a dodge; anyone who believes 9/11 was a false flag operation is someone who does not have a serious grounding in reality, and generally fails to use scientific minded reasoning when considering world events. The arguments you have made her are representative of that.

And I am sure Snoopy is not “too cowardly” to confront you; he is probably where I am getting to, having grown tired of what is so obviously a poorly reasoned and selective look at the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Roland Dodds said...

*made here

kellie said...

Thanks for the tally of animal similes, Lance. Here are some animal metaphors to go with them.

I'm reminded of the ant scene in the film Barcelona:

Ted: Maybe you'd like an analogy. Well, take... take these ants. In the U.S. view, a small group, or cadre, of fierce red ants have taken power and are oppressing the black ant majority. Now the stated U.S. policy is to aid those black ants opposing the red ants in hopes of restoring democracy, and to impede the red ants from assisting their red ant comrades in neighboring ant colonies.

Ramon: That is clearly the most disgusting description of U.S. policy I have ever heard. The Third World is just a lot of ants to you.

Jurgen: Those are people dying, not ants.

Ted: No, I... I don't think you understand. I was reducing everything to ant scale, the... the U.S. included. An ant White House, an ant CIA, an ant Congress, an ant Pentagon...

Ramon: Secret ant landing strips, illegally established on foreign soil.

Fred: Where are the red ants?

Ted: [pointing to an ant hill] There.

[Fred crushes the ants]

LanceThruster said...

Roland said: As for your comment about “Zionists” comparing Palestinians to cockroaches, I can only assume you are either fresh to the whole Israel/Palestine issue, or willfully ignorant of it. Not a single Zionist I know...---

Now who's willfully ignorant? I have shown you are mistaken here.

Roland Dodds said...

I question the legitimacy of the quotes you presented (something that makes arguing with folks who believe in bizarre conspiracy theories such a chore – they are less than meticulous in their presentation of ‘facts’), but even if they are true, it doesn’t disqualify my previous point. No one here is saying there are not abhorrent figures in Israel and elsewhere who are opponents of a two state solution. What we are saying is that the villi8fying of the Jewish people and Israel in general has become so pervasive and outlandish on the Palestinian side (and those that claim to support them) that it is simply taken for granted. At least Israel haters in the west try to cover their tracks by referring to their opponents as “Zionists”; their comrades in the Arab world don’t even bother.

LanceThruster said...

Bottom line Roland is the discussion is of the poster and the poster, IMHO, is accurate and not anti-Semitic.

Furthermore, it is my opinion that kellie knew exactly that "a fly with a flag" was meant to dismiss Palestinian aspirations (and suffering) as no more important than that of a bug.

I never denied comments that anti-Semites have made about Jews so her links are not really germane.

Roland made a blanket statement that has been shown to be false.

LanceThruster said...

...and snoopythegoon is a coward.

Roland Dodds said...

I am starting to think Snoopy might me onto something with your comments Lance.

“Bottom line Roland is the discussion is of the poster and the poster, IMHO, is accurate and not anti-Semitic.”

Alrighty then. Moving on...